The PCs are at full strength, having just taken a long rest, and this will be the only encounter they will have in the day. There are 3 level 6 PCs (Battlemaster fighter, Evocation wizard, Thief rogue). The fight consists of 4 skeletons, 4 zombies, 3 sword wraith warriors, and a necromancer from VGtM. This is beyond Deadly, but as it is the only encounter, I think they can do it. The PCs also have several spell scrolls at their disposal. The skeletons and zombies are guarding the necromancer in 3 groups (the first is the 4 zombies, next are 2 skeletons, the 3rd is the other 2 skeletons) and will not attack until a PC comes within their reach, so the PCs can get rid of them from range without taking any damage. Will the PCs die?
UPDATE: I just checked my notes and realized that the party got enough XP last session to level up to level 7 :| The rogue will be taking half to no damage from all the necro's spells, the fighter has a load of new manuevers, and the wizard can just trap the necro in a wall of fire. I think they can handle this now... The question now is, is this fight tough enough if I ply all the monsters smart?
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
This is definitely can be a hard fight just in the number of opponents as the attacks will start to stack up if the creatures charge the players. But as you indicated the three-wave 'guarding' the Necro if they are just going to stand there and not advance, even from range attacks, and maybe this is where I'm missing something, but they don't seem to serve much use. Also, keep in mind that the players could just aim for the Necro instead if it could be in equal range as well.
Where do the Sword Wraiths Warriors come into play are they attacking from the get-go or are do they wait for a 'trigger'?
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
This is definitely can be a hard fight just in the number of opponents as the attacks will start to stack up if the creatures charge the players. But as you indicated the three-wave 'guarding' the Necro if they are just going to stand there and not advance, even from range attacks, and maybe this is where I'm missing something, but they don't seem to serve much use. Also, keep in mind that the players could just aim for the Necro instead if it could be in equal range as well.
Where do the Sword Wraiths Warriors come into play are they attacking from the get-go or are do they wait for a 'trigger'?
The sword wraiths attack immeditaly. The party has 2-3 potions of greater healing each. Yes, the skeletons and zombies don't serve much use, they're just there to eat up the fighter's actions and prevent him from running up and nova-ing on the necro. Yes, the rogue and wizard could just go for the Necro, but if they did, they'd get killed by the sword wraiths: thats why they're in the encounter.
That Necromancer is pretty nasty and can pick the players off when they are engaged with the Sword Wraiths. Drop two Cloud Kill in that engagement and with the Sword Wraiths, their resistance may give the party an extra round or two of combat to get them finished off so the party could be sucking cloud during that time.
Zombies and Skeletons as previously mentioned cannon fodder and should not be a problem but like the Sword Wraiths will give the Necro a lot of time to cast some nasty spells at the party while they are engaged.
This is going to be hard for three players the X-Factor is going to be how you run the Necro in my opinion.
Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good bit from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
You really knew the answer from the start. A deadly encounter is where at least one player character is expected to die, and possibly all of them.
No it isn't. A deadly encounter is one where if the PCs really screw up one of them might die. You need around 2x Deadly to have reasonable odds of a TPK. Also, xp budgets work really poorly when dealing with mixed-CR enemies.
Anyway, this is highly dependent on the encounter layout. In general the optimal tactics are for the fighter and the rogue to ignore the stuff that's supposed to distract them and go nova the necromancer, because he's by far the most dangerous thing there, and the wizard should use fireball to clear the chaff. A big question here is range and terrain, if it takes a round or two to engage that will make a big difference.
If you want to make the fight legitimately challenging, swap one of the necromancer's less useful spells for counterspell.
You really knew the answer from the start. A deadly encounter is where at least one player character is expected to die, and possibly all of them. The Battlemaster at that level has 3 different maneuvers, and can use each of them, usually at least two in combination, for any single attack, they get 4, and they only come back after a Short Rest. In my opinion, that's not much of a nova. I've played a Battle Master up to 4th level now myself.
I don't know a lot about the other classes. I haven't gotten to play any of them yet. For the Wizard, I'd suggest they use Mind Spike. I can't find any other spell that does more damage, has a more difficult save, or affects living creatures or undead. The ability to mess with the Necromancer's next save could be useful.
The Thief Rogue class is all about getting into and out of places without being seen. In this situation, few of their Thief abilities are useful. They get a 2d6 sneak attack, and:
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.
Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good note from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
If she does that, the sword wraiths will kill her. She'll have to focus her attacks on them.
You've made an encounter that is half cake-walk, half deadly. Ignore 'Deadly' ratings for encounters, normally 'Deadly' means 'Easy' for a fully rested party, but in this case I think you've got trouble.
1) Action economy: The sword wraiths have only one attack per turn, and their maximum damage is 14 non-crit. The party can afford to ignore them.
2) The skeletons and zombies are kinda irrelevant
3) The Rogue and the Evocation Wizard can ranged-duel the Necromancer, which is way stronger than your wizard (double the spellcasting level!).
If your Necro casts Blight at 5th level on turn 1 of the combat, they deal 36 damage on a failed save. Do that twice on the wizard and if they fail the save twice the wizard is down. If the Necro survives to turn 3, Circle of Death and it's all over for the party. The necro has a measly 66 hit points, but unless they all get to barrage with spells or attacks, they probably won't take it out until turn 3.
The necro alone is a CR9 creature against just 3 x level 6 characters. If the necro wins initiative, I'd expect a TPK. If he loses initiatve, I expect they'll take him out in the 2nd turn and mop up adds thereafter.
The main danger for the party is if they don't realise that their enemy has access to 6th level spells.
You've made an encounter that is half cake-walk, half deadly. Ignore 'Deadly' ratings for encounters, normally 'Deadly' means 'Easy' for a fully rested party, but in this case I think you've got trouble.
1) Action economy: The sword wraiths have only one attack per turn, and their maximum damage is 14 non-crit. The party can afford to ignore them.
2) The skeletons and zombies are kinda irrelevant
3) The Rogue and the Evocation Wizard can ranged-duel the Necromancer, which is way stronger than your wizard (double the spellcasting level!).
If your Necro casts Blight at 5th level on turn 1 of the combat, they deal 36 damage on a failed save. Do that twice on the wizard and if they fail the save twice the wizard is down. If the Necro survives to turn 3, Circle of Death and it's all over for the party. The necro has a measly 66 hit points, but unless they all get to barrage with spells or attacks, they probably won't take it out until turn 3.
The necro alone is a CR9 creature against just 3 x level 6 characters. If the necro wins initiative, I'd expect a TPK. If he loses initiatve, I expect they'll take him out in the 2nd turn and mop up adds thereafter.
The main danger for the party is if they don't realise that their enemy has access to 6th level spells.
They've learnt to assume every boss they fight in my campaign is at least 5 levels higher then them.
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
I haven't found these to be super useful in combat. The action economy of potions is super punishing, and if everyone drinks one it's pretty much a free round for Team Monster. If they do more damage in that round than the potions healed, you just wasted a bunch of items and are worse off for it. It's very often more efficient to use that action to stop incoming damage instead, whether through positioning or buffing/debuffing or incapacitating your foes.
Potions are best out of combat, especially between fights in cases when you can't take a short rest.
I agree that the solution to this encounter is a couple of fireballs. If it draws attention to the wizard, all the better. The person who has already expended their best resources is the one you can most afford to do without. Assuming the wraiths will turn attention elsewhere once the wizard is unconscious, it's exactly what I would want them to do if I were the party.
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
I haven't found these to be super useful in combat. The action economy of potions is super punishing, and if everyone drinks one it's pretty much a free round for Team Monster. If they do more damage in that round than the potions healed, you just wasted a bunch of items and are worse off for it. It's very often more efficient to use that action to stop incoming damage instead, whether through positioning or buffing/debuffing or incapacitating your foes.
Potions are best out of combat, especially between fights in cases when you can't take a short rest.
I agree that the solution to this encounter is a couple of fireballs. If it draws attention to the wizard, all the better. The person who has already expended their best resources is the one you can most afford to do without. Assuming the wraiths will turn attention elsewhere once the wizard is unconscious, it's exactly what I would want them to do if I were the party.
The party are good tacticians, they'll be able to do it (I hope..)
Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good note from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
If she does that, the sword wraiths will kill her. She'll have to focus her attacks on them, and continue attacking the high-threat targets.
Focusing on the sword wraiths does not reduce their damage. Just cast Shield and tank them.
Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good note from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
If she does that, the sword wraiths will kill her. She'll have to focus her attacks on them, and continue attacking the high-threat targets.
Focusing on the sword wraiths does not reduce their damage. Just cast Shield and tank them.
If she focuses on them, they die quickly. She has low hit points, and can't tank the damage, period. If they remain for more then 2-3 rounds, she's dead.
If she focuses on them, they die quickly. She has low hit points, and can't tank the damage, period. If they remain for more then 2-3 rounds, she's dead.
If she focuses on them for 2-3 rounds, everyone dies.
The PCs are at full strength, having just taken a long rest, and this will be the only encounter they will have in the day. There are 3 level 6 PCs (Battlemaster fighter, Evocation wizard, Thief rogue). The fight consists of 4 skeletons, 4 zombies, 3 sword wraith warriors, and a necromancer from VGtM. This is beyond Deadly, but as it is the only encounter, I think they can do it. The PCs also have several spell scrolls at their disposal. The skeletons and zombies are guarding the necromancer in 3 groups (the first is the 4 zombies, next are 2 skeletons, the 3rd is the other 2 skeletons) and will not attack until a PC comes within their reach, so the PCs can get rid of them from range without taking any damage. Will the PCs die?
UPDATE: I just checked my notes and realized that the party got enough XP last session to level up to level 7 :| The rogue will be taking half to no damage from all the necro's spells, the fighter has a load of new manuevers, and the wizard can just trap the necro in a wall of fire. I think they can handle this now... The question now is, is this fight tough enough if I ply all the monsters smart?
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Random thoughts:
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
This is definitely can be a hard fight just in the number of opponents as the attacks will start to stack up if the creatures charge the players. But as you indicated the three-wave 'guarding' the Necro if they are just going to stand there and not advance, even from range attacks, and maybe this is where I'm missing something, but they don't seem to serve much use. Also, keep in mind that the players could just aim for the Necro instead if it could be in equal range as well.
Where do the Sword Wraiths Warriors come into play are they attacking from the get-go or are do they wait for a 'trigger'?
The sword wraiths attack immeditaly. The party has 2-3 potions of greater healing each. Yes, the skeletons and zombies don't serve much use, they're just there to eat up the fighter's actions and prevent him from running up and nova-ing on the necro. Yes, the rogue and wizard could just go for the Necro, but if they did, they'd get killed by the sword wraiths: thats why they're in the encounter.
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That Necromancer is pretty nasty and can pick the players off when they are engaged with the Sword Wraiths. Drop two Cloud Kill in that engagement and with the Sword Wraiths, their resistance may give the party an extra round or two of combat to get them finished off so the party could be sucking cloud during that time.
Zombies and Skeletons as previously mentioned cannon fodder and should not be a problem but like the Sword Wraiths will give the Necro a lot of time to cast some nasty spells at the party while they are engaged.
This is going to be hard for three players the X-Factor is going to be how you run the Necro in my opinion.
Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good bit from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
No it isn't. A deadly encounter is one where if the PCs really screw up one of them might die. You need around 2x Deadly to have reasonable odds of a TPK. Also, xp budgets work really poorly when dealing with mixed-CR enemies.
Anyway, this is highly dependent on the encounter layout. In general the optimal tactics are for the fighter and the rogue to ignore the stuff that's supposed to distract them and go nova the necromancer, because he's by far the most dangerous thing there, and the wizard should use fireball to clear the chaff. A big question here is range and terrain, if it takes a round or two to engage that will make a big difference.
If you want to make the fight legitimately challenging, swap one of the necromancer's less useful spells for counterspell.
Find out for yourself. Do a trial run where you control the players and monsters and see what happens.
They're 6th level, not 4th level.
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If she does that, the sword wraiths will kill her. She'll have to focus her attacks on them.
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I run this in an hour... Don't think I have time to do that.
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Good luck. Let us know what happens.
Will do... It might not be pretty, though :|
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You've made an encounter that is half cake-walk, half deadly. Ignore 'Deadly' ratings for encounters, normally 'Deadly' means 'Easy' for a fully rested party, but in this case I think you've got trouble.
1) Action economy: The sword wraiths have only one attack per turn, and their maximum damage is 14 non-crit. The party can afford to ignore them.
2) The skeletons and zombies are kinda irrelevant
3) The Rogue and the Evocation Wizard can ranged-duel the Necromancer, which is way stronger than your wizard (double the spellcasting level!).
If your Necro casts Blight at 5th level on turn 1 of the combat, they deal 36 damage on a failed save. Do that twice on the wizard and if they fail the save twice the wizard is down. If the Necro survives to turn 3, Circle of Death and it's all over for the party. The necro has a measly 66 hit points, but unless they all get to barrage with spells or attacks, they probably won't take it out until turn 3.
The necro alone is a CR9 creature against just 3 x level 6 characters. If the necro wins initiative, I'd expect a TPK. If he loses initiatve, I expect they'll take him out in the 2nd turn and mop up adds thereafter.
The main danger for the party is if they don't realise that their enemy has access to 6th level spells.
They've learnt to assume every boss they fight in my campaign is at least 5 levels higher then them.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
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I haven't found these to be super useful in combat. The action economy of potions is super punishing, and if everyone drinks one it's pretty much a free round for Team Monster. If they do more damage in that round than the potions healed, you just wasted a bunch of items and are worse off for it. It's very often more efficient to use that action to stop incoming damage instead, whether through positioning or buffing/debuffing or incapacitating your foes.
Potions are best out of combat, especially between fights in cases when you can't take a short rest.
I agree that the solution to this encounter is a couple of fireballs. If it draws attention to the wizard, all the better. The person who has already expended their best resources is the one you can most afford to do without. Assuming the wraiths will turn attention elsewhere once the wizard is unconscious, it's exactly what I would want them to do if I were the party.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The party are good tacticians, they'll be able to do it (I hope..)
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Focusing on the sword wraiths does not reduce their damage. Just cast Shield and tank them.
If she focuses on them, they die quickly. She has low hit points, and can't tank the damage, period. If they remain for more then 2-3 rounds, she's dead.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
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If she focuses on them for 2-3 rounds, everyone dies.
If anything you do as DM threatens the lives of your players and not just their PCs, you’re taking things a bit too seriously..
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