The players in my current campaign must be allergic to magic items.
The adventurers came across a Neogi overseeing some dwarves slave away in the mines. They noticed that the Neogi had a brown bag in its claws, intently interested in this bag. They defeated the Neogi and then helped the dwarves. They didn't pick up or ask about the bag the Neogi was playing around with. Later they returned to the quest giver who asked if they came across a bag, which helped the quest keeper haul a LOT of ore back, and one of the player realised it was a bag of holding. They returned to the mine a few days later and by then it was gone.
They undertook to steal the top prize from a carnival competition after not winning it. The top prize was a valuable ring that they didn't bother to identify or really look at. The rogue characters then took it to a store and the storekeep seeing its value, offered 100gp and the character agreed to this. After the sale, I said to the player directly, "You realize this was a magic ring?", to which the character then asked if can he buy or steal it back. I said, "no, I'm just telling you so you know for next time. There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!"
Adventurers came into a room which had four paintings depicting the same landscape but in different seasons. There was also a man depicted in those paintings going through different stages of life. Another clue said - How we quickly stride from beauty and youth to our cold desolate truth”. I thought the puzzle wasn't too hard and it would unlock some nifty magical items. But no, the character leading thought the answer was to throw the winter paintings into the fireplace - though the fire was an illusion so no damage. As nothing happened, he then proceeded to destroy the painting, which then made the puzzle solution impossible.
The entrance door to a dungeon was held aloft by a strange rod. The players decided to keep it there and would grab it on the way back. I won't remind them to do so, so I'm guessing they will forget about grabbing the Immovable Rod when they finish the dungeon one day!
Well... seems a bit, that your players either want to be pushed with their faces into their loot, or that you maybe do not emphasize the possible items enough to push the focus of the players towards them. Always remember, that the players neither know any of the possible clues you have in your mind, unless directly and obviously exposed to them, nor do players typically remember things from sessions past.
Overall, my guess is, that you and your players have a bit deviating expectations on the game at hand.
I'll be honest, it sounds a bit like you're obfuscating magic items and then getting annoying when your players don't see through the obfuscation immediately and then punishing them for it.
With the bag, they apparently had no reason in the moment to guess the bag was magical. But when they later found out through hints you decided to give them after the fact, you also decided the bag was gone. Why give them hints the bag was important if you had already decided they weren't going to be able to get it
For the ring, simply touching it should've given them a hint it was magical. From the Basic Rules "Handling a magic item is enough to give a character a sense that something is extraordinary about the item". Telling the player after the game that they messed up by selling the ring but there's no way to get it back is much like the above point. What benefit does that information serve.
With the puzzles, you shouldn't really put anything you want the players to get/reach/accomplish behind a puzzle, especially if said puzzle can be rendered unsolvable. You created a situation where, without knowing it, the players could rob themselves of success. This follow the above two points.
Finally, with the (assumed) immovable rod, the players might forget to grab it on the way back, but that doesn't mean their characters would. There's nothing wrong, as DM, saying "On your way out, you once again notice the strange rod impossibly holding the door aloft"
If you want your players to get these magic items, give the magic items to them
It seems that there is a difference in expectations here. They're expecting you to be more obvious in what is worth investigating than what is your style.
I'd have a time out and have a chat and find a compromise. Neither are wrong per se, but you're effectively punishing them for that difference in expectation and that's not a healthy dynamic to have.
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The adventurers came across a Neogi overseeing some dwarves slave away in the mines. They noticed that the Neogi had a brown bag in its claws, intently interested in this bag. They defeated the Neogi and then helped the dwarves. They didn't pick up or ask about the bag the Neogi was playing around with. Later they returned to the quest giver who asked if they came across a bag, which helped the quest keeper haul a LOT of ore back, and one of the player realised it was a bag of holding. They returned to the mine a few days later and by then it was gone.
It seems the players didn't think it was anything and when you revealed it was worth something, you removed the opportunity for them to get it. That's on you.
They undertook to steal the top prize from a carnival competition after not winning it. The top prize was a valuable ring that they didn't bother to identify or really look at. The rogue characters then took it to a store and the storekeep seeing its value, offered 100gp and the character agreed to this. After the sale, I said to the player directly, "You realize this was a magic ring?", to which the character then asked if can he buy or steal it back. I said, "no, I'm just telling you so you know for next time. There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!"
Unless the carnival literally said "this is a magic ring" - which it seems you didn't, they had no way of knowing. You, as the DM, could have given hints to it being magical and reminded them they can identify items using a short rest or the Identify if they had access to it. It is evident that you did not, so they assumed it was just an expensive ring so pawned it for gold, which is reasonable. When you then told them it was magical you then denied them any opportunity to get it it back. Again, that's on you.
Adventurers came into a room which had four paintings depicting the same landscape but in different seasons. There was also a man depicted in those paintings going through different stages of life. Another clue said - How we quickly stride from beauty and youth to our cold desolate truth”. I thought the puzzle wasn't too hard and it would unlock some nifty magical items. But no, the character leading thought the answer was to throw the winter paintings into the fireplace - though the fire was an illusion so no damage. As nothing happened, he then proceeded to destroy the painting, which then made the puzzle solution impossible.
You have not elaborated on how this puzzle works so I cannot comment on whether it was easy or not. However, when characters start to indicate their attempt to damage they key piece you, as DM, could have provided them the opportunity to make a simple intelligence check and provide either basic info, clues or maybe even the solution based on their result. Perhaps a 5 or more is enough to reveal that damaging it renders the puzzle impossible, 15 or more gives a clue and 25 or more gives the solution. Something like that. You dropped the ball there. This should prompt a discussion with your players to assess if the puzzles are too difficult or if the players aren't interested in puzzle solving.
The entrance door to a dungeon was held aloft by a strange rod. The players decided to keep it there and would grab it on the way back. I won't remind them to do so, so I'm guessing they will forget about grabbing the Immovable Rod when they finish the dungeon one day!
This depends on how you have described this rod and how it accomplishes the feat. If you have simply said "a rod holds the door" they have no reason to assume anything magical. If you described it as "somehow this small rod is suspended in mid-air and holding up a great and heavy door, something that seems entirely impossible" or something like that, you have done all you can and the rest is on them.
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1 of 4 is undetermined.
3 of 4 are definitely you.
My response is critical but don't worry over it. DMing is difficult and every party is different. You may have players who expect magical treasures and may first assume most rewards are such, and others think the opposite. It's your job to understand your group and to wink, nudge or faceslam-with-anvil-sized-hint as necessary (you have the latter kind, it seems). That's not easy, and I do commend you for reaching out to others to get advice.
You need to be more direct with the hints and prompts and if something is missed perhaps be a tad merciful and provide the opportunity to rectify that. For #1 and #2 it comes across as a slap to the face to be told "oh there was something magical, but now you know you can't possibly get it, lulz"
You can also just have a chat with them and explain these so they know you are trying to provide them with magic items and they need to be more attentive.
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Adventurers came into a room which had four paintings depicting the same landscape but in different seasons. There was also a man depicted in those paintings going through different stages of life. Another clue said - How we quickly stride from beauty and youth to our cold desolate truth”. I thought the puzzle wasn't too hard and it would unlock some nifty magical items. But no, the character leading thought the answer was to throw the winter paintings into the fireplace - though the fire was an illusion so no damage. As nothing happened, he then proceeded to destroy the painting, which then made the puzzle solution impossible.
As fun as it might seem to make your players try to sweat out a riddle or rhyme, remember that this is one of the things you should really be using INT checks for. Stats are in the game for a reason. Sure, give the players a chance to puzzle it out IRL, but if they don't get your riddle, and they actually state that their character is trying to figure it out, a roll to see if their character does indeed get it is appropriate. (At the very least, a good INT roll should give them some kind of additional clue.)
A 6 INT barbarian should not really benefit that much, just because their player might have a 130 IQ in real life. Nor should a 20 INT wizard be penalized just because their controller might only have a real life IQ of 85. (And yes, I am fully aware of the pitfalls of the entire concept of IQ in real life. I am using it as a simple explanation for the line of thinking, which is what the rules are meant to actually simulate...)
Not everyone is going to understand your personal internal symbology, or will be familiar with your pop-culture references, which is where all of your riddles come from. Unless of course you took the riddle from someone else, in which case it is that person's personal head contents that you are dropping on your players instead. Either way, its an unreasonable expectation.
Players often find alternate routes thru your adventures, you have to be flexible and provide alternate routes to the treasures sometimes. My players were in phandalin dealing with the red brand stronghold when they ran into the nothing. Instead of killing it (which they were well on the way to doing) they ended up making a deal with it. This meant they were not going to explore the crevasse and find its lair and the items there. After clearing the complex they brought the nothing all the bodies so I had it bring up the magic items and reward the party for feeding it and leaving it alive and sort of “befriending” it. with th your bag of holding I would have let them go back and put something else monsterwise there that maybe didn’t realize the bag was magical and they would have had to defeat it in its (new) lair ( and lair actions) to get the bag - not just rule it was now gone. Or maybe find a different party of adventurers to take on there to get it, etc.
I know a DM who prefers the players to discover items. He is very descriptive of things, and the players have all the clues they need to prompt investigation.
When they don't, he doesn't tell them they missed a chance. He will tell the audience in a behind-the-scenes vlog that the players voluntarily do not watch.
He learned early on that they are programmed by video games to have glowing halos around loot. Instead of catering to it, he's letting them learn to investigate on their own. By not changing his method, the players end up rewarding themselves by picking up on clues and investigating on their own without glowing halos around loot. They're learning and getting better at D&Ding loot acquisition.
One of the many things a DM must remember is that not all content will be used no matter how much you wanted players to experience something into which you pour your heart. Nobody is at fault for that. Think of it as an opportunity to recycle what was missed into later situations, instead.
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IMHO this could fall under the "Players are not the PC's and the PC's are not the players" statement. So would the PC in their experience and training think of the things you the GM are pointing out as problems or not. A complication always is 'I want the players to play the game and not me play the PC's for the players". That is a valid point but again in my experience most players do not have the skills and potentially the stats that their PC's have, so the GM should help them out in those areas.
On the other, adventurers should know the first rule of thumb for looting is "take everything that isn't nailed down and if it is nailed down, see if you can pry out those nails".
Recently, I was playing Hoarde of the Dragon Queen, and after the initial fight, I started collecting the heads/bodies of the Kobolds we'd killed. The DM wondered why - this is the one I mentioned about not really having loot drops for the encounters in another thread - and I was like "Well, maybe the town has a bounty on these kobolds and presenting them will get us some payment? If not, I know how to make a certain instrument from skulls and guts we can sell."
I often play wizards or Wizard multiclasses, if only to get access to the ritual detect magic. When I first started spamming the ritual in going thru rooms and after combats it annoyed my fellow players because it was “ slowing down the game” that ended fairly quickly when they started seeing just how much stuff they were actually missing as they rushed from combat to combat. I’m DMing now and it’s sort of funny to watch them fall right back into the combat rush mode and miss items and treasure they could have gotten. They just finished the the shrine of Savras combat and it’s clear they are going to rush on to the next combat without exploring the shrine and finding both the magic items hidden there and the disguised gold bell that could make them considerably wealthier. I think they are going to be annoyed when they return to phandalin to discover a different party celebrating with the gold and talking about how easy it was since someone had cleared the temple but hadn’t bothered to search it. 5e has become so combat centric that even old pros are forgetting to do basic searches and use rituals effectively.
Yes, you are being too harsh. Especially when you are rubbing those "mistakes" in your players face while simultaneously denying them any chance to remedy them. If your players miss a magic item, don't tell them they missed it unless you plan on providing them with a way to retrieve it. That just feels mean spirited.
And I say "mistakes" in quotes because I'm not seeing much that your players are doing wrong. Remember that they are operating with a different set of information than you. You are thinking 'bag of holding!" while they are thinking 'brown bag'. Its clearly going to stay in your mind as important. They are clearly going to be distracted by a battle to the death and can easily forget about it. Memory is based a lot on visual or audio cues. Players don't have eyes or ears - YOU are their senses. If their character would notice something important, tell your players.
You should be narrating afterwards something along the lines of "You drive the blade into the creature's stomach, and it falls lifelessly to the floor. The brown bag it was holding spills onto the floor". If the players mention "we want to grab the rod on the way back", and the players clearly move past the rod again, tell your players. Be their eyes and ears.
As for the ring - players should know it is magical simply by touching it, precisely for this reason. Its in the basic rules. And puzzles... this is a lesson that I think every DM learns. Puzzles are almost never as easy as you think they should be.
I think of this mindset as "passive antagonism." There's a lot of "gotcha" moments here, and you treat every one of them as a point of no return with no way to correct the oversight.
As spammdc mentioned, in many of these cases it's highly unlikely the characters actually wouldn't have remembered some of these things. The bag was right in front of them when the neogi died. They walked right past the rod on their way out. The characters are always receiving information from the world, but the players only get it when you're speaking to them. But I get the intent of rewarding players for paying attention - just the way you've done it here feels like punishment.
And the carnival thing is just weird and unrealistic. If the top prize of any kind of competition was a magic item, why in the world wouldn't they openly advertise what it was? I'm picturing carnival flyers for this contest and can't imagine the prize not being heavily featured there. If not an actual description, it would at least be really playing up its value. This one just feels the most passive-agressive of all of them. "There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!" Why not? There is no legitimate in-world reason why they couldn't get it back - buying it back, stealing it, whatever. It's 100% because you tricked them, you "won" and they "lost" and now you're declaring the game over.
Again, I kind of get it. I don't think everything needs to be handed to the players on a silver platter. But this just doesn't feel like a fun dynamic to me and I'd be a bit soured on the game if I were a player.
I once ran a PbP game for three players with spoiler tags to remove the possibility of metagaming. One of the players decided to steal another player's coin pouch. The victim was unconscious and the thief was stabilizing him. He took this opportunity to steal from him while the third player wasn't looking. This was all done in secret with spoiler tags. Once the unconscious character woke up a few in-game hours later, I removed all of his coins on his character sheet in secret. It took the player a long time to notice, which happened when he needed to pay for something. The player just accepted it and didn't even try to investigate.
Later in the game, the thief died. The other players brought his body and belongings to a temple outside of the dungeon so that he could get a proper burial. They also made an inventory of his stuff, hoping to leave it for his family. The victim found two pouches containing coins and I made sure to tell the player in spoiler tags that one of the pouches looked familiar. The player never picked up on the hint. As for the other player, I also told him in spoiler tags about the two pouches, but didn't say anything about one being special. The victim never even told the other player that his coins were stolen. Let's just say the thieving player, who chose not to make a new character but remained as a spectator, was facepalming the whole time.
The moral of the story is that it doesn't matter how many clues you leave your players, some of them can be very oblivious. And before someone tells me that I should have outright told the victim that it was his missing pouch, I would have if his passive investigation score wasn't so abysmal.
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This is not a video game and players should learn from their mistakes.
If they do not learn then let them play along as they wish and suffer the consequences. Even the dumbest battle monkey character knows to claim their fallen opponents stuff. He might not know if its magic but he knows its "pretty". His smarter party members might be able to help him out in identifying it. If the player doesn't do his part there is nothing a DM can do about it.
I mean I'd argue being too harsh. I also don't think when your players pass magic items up that you should spend time telling them they missed it without an opportunity to get it back.
How often do you play? Sometimes depending on where things end in the session chances are even if you give a refresher there could be somethings that get missed. My group only meets every other week and there are times when lots of folks missed a lot of minute details. Even if this isn't the case you could be setting up DC's for your players to roll in general when some of these things come along or something else other than just hoping your players "figure it out".
A question about the rod, have the players stated out loud that they want to look at it on the way out? If so I would definitely prompt them as the character is unlikely to forget that something caught their attention even if the player does.
Remember depending on the group a few sessions can be weeks of real time to forget a key point, representing minutes or hours for the character.
I think of this mindset as "passive antagonism." There's a lot of "gotcha" moments here, and you treat every one of them as a point of no return with no way to correct the oversight.
As spammdc mentioned, in many of these cases it's highly unlikely the characters actually wouldn't have remembered some of these things. The bag was right in front of them when the neogi died. They walked right past the rod on their way out. The characters are always receiving information from the world, but the players only get it when you're speaking to them. But I get the intent of rewarding players for paying attention - just the way you've done it here feels like punishment.
And the carnival thing is just weird and unrealistic. If the top prize of any kind of competition was a magic item, why in the world wouldn't they openly advertise what it was? I'm picturing carnival flyers for this contest and can't imagine the prize not being heavily featured there. If not an actual description, it would at least be really playing up its value. This one just feels the most passive-agressive of all of them. "There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!" Why not? There is no legitimate in-world reason why they couldn't get it back - buying it back, stealing it, whatever. It's 100% because you tricked them, you "won" and they "lost" and now you're declaring the game over.
Again, I kind of get it. I don't think everything needs to be handed to the players on a silver platter. But this just doesn't feel like a fun dynamic to me and I'd be a bit soured on the game if I were a player.
This except I don’t even “kind of get it.” This game sounds about as fun as roasting ants with a magnifying glass if your players are the ants. You’re basically tormenting them by withholding the information they need to be successful and then rubbing their faces in it afterwards. D&D is a lot like the five blind guys trying to describe an elephant and the DM is a sighted-person who knows the whole picture. They are not allergic to the whole picture and they are not passive-aggressively refusing to recognize the whole picture; they are doing their best with the information they have. Players rely on a DM for success. If a group is consistently failing in the manner you describe, the DM is not providing the tools they need to succeed, the path too success is too narrow and/or the group is not on the same page regarding game style.
I think you should be more forthcoming, FAR MORE, with information while it’s still meaningful instead of when it’s only used to chide them—why couldn’t they get that ring back by some means after they learned its nature? A heist involving getting that ring by hook or by crook sounds like a ton more fun than being told I’m dumb for not knowing it was magic and selling it for a 100gp to some dude who made it vanish from all of existence apparently. I also think you should also be for flexible in what constitutes a solution in your game. No plan ever survives contact with the players. Not only is it common advice that DM’s have at least three solutions to every problem, I also believe a DM should recognize that sometimes their perfectly obvious solution is so out in the players’ left field that they’re never gonna get it so just work with whatever clever ideas they’ve come up with—why couldn’t burning the paintings work just as well as rearranging them? It’s decent ingenuity in the face of the problem and keeping the game fun and flowing is more important than the DM’s arbitrary machinations being correct. This is the nature of the game. Your job as the DM is not to win because the DM is all powerful. The DM can ALWAYS win but that’s no fun for the players. The DM’s actual job is to work with the players to make them feel like they might not win but they always do in the end…
Obviously I might be a bit too harsh with the players and might need to lead them by the nose a little bit more :D
I didn't mention it in the original post, but the world they they play in is currently devoid of magic users (except for clerics and the like, magic is in the process of returning, though the players have access to their full powers regardless of class, making them pretty powerful in the scheme of things as other citizens have no powers whatsoever, except for a few rare individuals at this stage and clerics/paladins of the world. Magic items still exist from the times before and maintain their magic, though a rare ).
I didn't realise about the D&D rule that one knows that something is magic during the touch, I'll keep that in mind going forward :)
The players have not gotten upset thankfully, we all said it was they were lessons to be learnt to check items a bit more carefully, though that has yet to happen despite my reminders over the course of a year's campaign worth!
With all the items in question, they were not items I wanted to give to players but instead were optional rewards, so I personally didn't mind either way but would reward the canny player (but obviously, my methods have been flawed!).
Just to add, that despite the way I might have come across the OG post as me being so prideful telling them that they missed out, I don't do any laughing in their face or insulting them.
The players in my current campaign must be allergic to magic items.
Am I being too harsh?!
Well... seems a bit, that your players either want to be pushed with their faces into their loot, or that you maybe do not emphasize the possible items enough to push the focus of the players towards them. Always remember, that the players neither know any of the possible clues you have in your mind, unless directly and obviously exposed to them, nor do players typically remember things from sessions past.
Overall, my guess is, that you and your players have a bit deviating expectations on the game at hand.
I'll be honest, it sounds a bit like you're obfuscating magic items and then getting annoying when your players don't see through the obfuscation immediately and then punishing them for it.
If you want your players to get these magic items, give the magic items to them
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It seems that there is a difference in expectations here. They're expecting you to be more obvious in what is worth investigating than what is your style.
I'd have a time out and have a chat and find a compromise. Neither are wrong per se, but you're effectively punishing them for that difference in expectation and that's not a healthy dynamic to have.
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It seems the players didn't think it was anything and when you revealed it was worth something, you removed the opportunity for them to get it. That's on you.
Unless the carnival literally said "this is a magic ring" - which it seems you didn't, they had no way of knowing. You, as the DM, could have given hints to it being magical and reminded them they can identify items using a short rest or the Identify if they had access to it. It is evident that you did not, so they assumed it was just an expensive ring so pawned it for gold, which is reasonable. When you then told them it was magical you then denied them any opportunity to get it it back. Again, that's on you.
You have not elaborated on how this puzzle works so I cannot comment on whether it was easy or not. However, when characters start to indicate their attempt to damage they key piece you, as DM, could have provided them the opportunity to make a simple intelligence check and provide either basic info, clues or maybe even the solution based on their result. Perhaps a 5 or more is enough to reveal that damaging it renders the puzzle impossible, 15 or more gives a clue and 25 or more gives the solution. Something like that. You dropped the ball there. This should prompt a discussion with your players to assess if the puzzles are too difficult or if the players aren't interested in puzzle solving.
This depends on how you have described this rod and how it accomplishes the feat. If you have simply said "a rod holds the door" they have no reason to assume anything magical. If you described it as "somehow this small rod is suspended in mid-air and holding up a great and heavy door, something that seems entirely impossible" or something like that, you have done all you can and the rest is on them.
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1 of 4 is undetermined.
3 of 4 are definitely you.
My response is critical but don't worry over it. DMing is difficult and every party is different. You may have players who expect magical treasures and may first assume most rewards are such, and others think the opposite. It's your job to understand your group and to wink, nudge or faceslam-with-anvil-sized-hint as necessary (you have the latter kind, it seems). That's not easy, and I do commend you for reaching out to others to get advice.
You need to be more direct with the hints and prompts and if something is missed perhaps be a tad merciful and provide the opportunity to rectify that. For #1 and #2 it comes across as a slap to the face to be told "oh there was something magical, but now you know you can't possibly get it, lulz"
You can also just have a chat with them and explain these so they know you are trying to provide them with magic items and they need to be more attentive.
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As fun as it might seem to make your players try to sweat out a riddle or rhyme, remember that this is one of the things you should really be using INT checks for. Stats are in the game for a reason. Sure, give the players a chance to puzzle it out IRL, but if they don't get your riddle, and they actually state that their character is trying to figure it out, a roll to see if their character does indeed get it is appropriate. (At the very least, a good INT roll should give them some kind of additional clue.)
A 6 INT barbarian should not really benefit that much, just because their player might have a 130 IQ in real life. Nor should a 20 INT wizard be penalized just because their controller might only have a real life IQ of 85. (And yes, I am fully aware of the pitfalls of the entire concept of IQ in real life. I am using it as a simple explanation for the line of thinking, which is what the rules are meant to actually simulate...)
Not everyone is going to understand your personal internal symbology, or will be familiar with your pop-culture references, which is where all of your riddles come from. Unless of course you took the riddle from someone else, in which case it is that person's personal head contents that you are dropping on your players instead. Either way, its an unreasonable expectation.
Players often find alternate routes thru your adventures, you have to be flexible and provide alternate routes to the treasures sometimes. My players were in phandalin dealing with the red brand stronghold when they ran into the nothing. Instead of killing it (which they were well on the way to doing) they ended up making a deal with it. This meant they were not going to explore the crevasse and find its lair and the items there. After clearing the complex they brought the nothing all the bodies so I had it bring up the magic items and reward the party for feeding it and leaving it alive and sort of “befriending” it.
with th your bag of holding I would have let them go back and put something else monsterwise there that maybe didn’t realize the bag was magical and they would have had to defeat it in its (new) lair ( and lair actions) to get the bag - not just rule it was now gone. Or maybe find a different party of adventurers to take on there to get it, etc.
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I know a DM who prefers the players to discover items. He is very descriptive of things, and the players have all the clues they need to prompt investigation.
When they don't, he doesn't tell them they missed a chance. He will tell the audience in a behind-the-scenes vlog that the players voluntarily do not watch.
He learned early on that they are programmed by video games to have glowing halos around loot. Instead of catering to it, he's letting them learn to investigate on their own. By not changing his method, the players end up rewarding themselves by picking up on clues and investigating on their own without glowing halos around loot. They're learning and getting better at D&Ding loot acquisition.
One of the many things a DM must remember is that not all content will be used no matter how much you wanted players to experience something into which you pour your heart. Nobody is at fault for that. Think of it as an opportunity to recycle what was missed into later situations, instead.
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I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
IMHO this could fall under the "Players are not the PC's and the PC's are not the players" statement. So would the PC in their experience and training think of the things you the GM are pointing out as problems or not. A complication always is 'I want the players to play the game and not me play the PC's for the players". That is a valid point but again in my experience most players do not have the skills and potentially the stats that their PC's have, so the GM should help them out in those areas.
Yes!
Well, on the one hand.
On the other, adventurers should know the first rule of thumb for looting is "take everything that isn't nailed down and if it is nailed down, see if you can pry out those nails".
Recently, I was playing Hoarde of the Dragon Queen, and after the initial fight, I started collecting the heads/bodies of the Kobolds we'd killed. The DM wondered why - this is the one I mentioned about not really having loot drops for the encounters in another thread - and I was like "Well, maybe the town has a bounty on these kobolds and presenting them will get us some payment? If not, I know how to make a certain instrument from skulls and guts we can sell."
Moral of the story: Everything is Treasure.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I often play wizards or Wizard multiclasses, if only to get access to the ritual detect magic. When I first started spamming the ritual in going thru rooms and after combats it annoyed my fellow players because it was “ slowing down the game” that ended fairly quickly when they started seeing just how much stuff they were actually missing as they rushed from combat to combat. I’m DMing now and it’s sort of funny to watch them fall right back into the combat rush mode and miss items and treasure they could have gotten. They just finished the the shrine of Savras combat and it’s clear they are going to rush on to the next combat without exploring the shrine and finding both the magic items hidden there and the disguised gold bell that could make them considerably wealthier. I think they are going to be annoyed when they return to phandalin to discover a different party celebrating with the gold and talking about how easy it was since someone had cleared the temple but hadn’t bothered to search it. 5e has become so combat centric that even old pros are forgetting to do basic searches and use rituals effectively.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes, you are being too harsh. Especially when you are rubbing those "mistakes" in your players face while simultaneously denying them any chance to remedy them. If your players miss a magic item, don't tell them they missed it unless you plan on providing them with a way to retrieve it. That just feels mean spirited.
And I say "mistakes" in quotes because I'm not seeing much that your players are doing wrong. Remember that they are operating with a different set of information than you. You are thinking 'bag of holding!" while they are thinking 'brown bag'. Its clearly going to stay in your mind as important. They are clearly going to be distracted by a battle to the death and can easily forget about it. Memory is based a lot on visual or audio cues. Players don't have eyes or ears - YOU are their senses. If their character would notice something important, tell your players.
You should be narrating afterwards something along the lines of "You drive the blade into the creature's stomach, and it falls lifelessly to the floor. The brown bag it was holding spills onto the floor". If the players mention "we want to grab the rod on the way back", and the players clearly move past the rod again, tell your players. Be their eyes and ears.
As for the ring - players should know it is magical simply by touching it, precisely for this reason. Its in the basic rules. And puzzles... this is a lesson that I think every DM learns. Puzzles are almost never as easy as you think they should be.
I think of this mindset as "passive antagonism." There's a lot of "gotcha" moments here, and you treat every one of them as a point of no return with no way to correct the oversight.
As spammdc mentioned, in many of these cases it's highly unlikely the characters actually wouldn't have remembered some of these things. The bag was right in front of them when the neogi died. They walked right past the rod on their way out. The characters are always receiving information from the world, but the players only get it when you're speaking to them. But I get the intent of rewarding players for paying attention - just the way you've done it here feels like punishment.
And the carnival thing is just weird and unrealistic. If the top prize of any kind of competition was a magic item, why in the world wouldn't they openly advertise what it was? I'm picturing carnival flyers for this contest and can't imagine the prize not being heavily featured there. If not an actual description, it would at least be really playing up its value. This one just feels the most passive-agressive of all of them. "There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!" Why not? There is no legitimate in-world reason why they couldn't get it back - buying it back, stealing it, whatever. It's 100% because you tricked them, you "won" and they "lost" and now you're declaring the game over.
Again, I kind of get it. I don't think everything needs to be handed to the players on a silver platter. But this just doesn't feel like a fun dynamic to me and I'd be a bit soured on the game if I were a player.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I once ran a PbP game for three players with spoiler tags to remove the possibility of metagaming. One of the players decided to steal another player's coin pouch. The victim was unconscious and the thief was stabilizing him. He took this opportunity to steal from him while the third player wasn't looking. This was all done in secret with spoiler tags. Once the unconscious character woke up a few in-game hours later, I removed all of his coins on his character sheet in secret. It took the player a long time to notice, which happened when he needed to pay for something. The player just accepted it and didn't even try to investigate.
Later in the game, the thief died. The other players brought his body and belongings to a temple outside of the dungeon so that he could get a proper burial. They also made an inventory of his stuff, hoping to leave it for his family. The victim found two pouches containing coins and I made sure to tell the player in spoiler tags that one of the pouches looked familiar. The player never picked up on the hint. As for the other player, I also told him in spoiler tags about the two pouches, but didn't say anything about one being special. The victim never even told the other player that his coins were stolen. Let's just say the thieving player, who chose not to make a new character but remained as a spectator, was facepalming the whole time.
The moral of the story is that it doesn't matter how many clues you leave your players, some of them can be very oblivious. And before someone tells me that I should have outright told the victim that it was his missing pouch, I would have if his passive investigation score wasn't so abysmal.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
This is not a video game and players should learn from their mistakes.
If they do not learn then let them play along as they wish and suffer the consequences. Even the dumbest battle monkey character knows to claim their fallen opponents stuff. He might not know if its magic but he knows its "pretty". His smarter party members might be able to help him out in identifying it. If the player doesn't do his part there is nothing a DM can do about it.
You should probably be more obvious with the fact that stuff is magical.
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I mean I'd argue being too harsh. I also don't think when your players pass magic items up that you should spend time telling them they missed it without an opportunity to get it back.
How often do you play? Sometimes depending on where things end in the session chances are even if you give a refresher there could be somethings that get missed. My group only meets every other week and there are times when lots of folks missed a lot of minute details. Even if this isn't the case you could be setting up DC's for your players to roll in general when some of these things come along or something else other than just hoping your players "figure it out".
A question about the rod, have the players stated out loud that they want to look at it on the way out? If so I would definitely prompt them as the character is unlikely to forget that something caught their attention even if the player does.
Remember depending on the group a few sessions can be weeks of real time to forget a key point, representing minutes or hours for the character.
This except I don’t even “kind of get it.” This game sounds about as fun as roasting ants with a magnifying glass if your players are the ants. You’re basically tormenting them by withholding the information they need to be successful and then rubbing their faces in it afterwards. D&D is a lot like the five blind guys trying to describe an elephant and the DM is a sighted-person who knows the whole picture. They are not allergic to the whole picture and they are not passive-aggressively refusing to recognize the whole picture; they are doing their best with the information they have. Players rely on a DM for success. If a group is consistently failing in the manner you describe, the DM is not providing the tools they need to succeed, the path too success is too narrow and/or the group is not on the same page regarding game style.
I think you should be more forthcoming, FAR MORE, with information while it’s still meaningful instead of when it’s only used to chide them—why couldn’t they get that ring back by some means after they learned its nature? A heist involving getting that ring by hook or by crook sounds like a ton more fun than being told I’m dumb for not knowing it was magic and selling it for a 100gp to some dude who made it vanish from all of existence apparently. I also think you should also be for flexible in what constitutes a solution in your game. No plan ever survives contact with the players. Not only is it common advice that DM’s have at least three solutions to every problem, I also believe a DM should recognize that sometimes their perfectly obvious solution is so out in the players’ left field that they’re never gonna get it so just work with whatever clever ideas they’ve come up with—why couldn’t burning the paintings work just as well as rearranging them? It’s decent ingenuity in the face of the problem and keeping the game fun and flowing is more important than the DM’s arbitrary machinations being correct. This is the nature of the game. Your job as the DM is not to win because the DM is all powerful. The DM can ALWAYS win but that’s no fun for the players. The DM’s actual job is to work with the players to make them feel like they might not win but they always do in the end…
Many thanks to you all for your replies!
Obviously I might be a bit too harsh with the players and might need to lead them by the nose a little bit more :D
I didn't mention it in the original post, but the world they they play in is currently devoid of magic users (except for clerics and the like, magic is in the process of returning, though the players have access to their full powers regardless of class, making them pretty powerful in the scheme of things as other citizens have no powers whatsoever, except for a few rare individuals at this stage and clerics/paladins of the world. Magic items still exist from the times before and maintain their magic, though a rare ).
I didn't realise about the D&D rule that one knows that something is magic during the touch, I'll keep that in mind going forward :)
The players have not gotten upset thankfully, we all said it was they were lessons to be learnt to check items a bit more carefully, though that has yet to happen despite my reminders over the course of a year's campaign worth!
With all the items in question, they were not items I wanted to give to players but instead were optional rewards, so I personally didn't mind either way but would reward the canny player (but obviously, my methods have been flawed!).
Just to add, that despite the way I might have come across the OG post as me being so prideful telling them that they missed out, I don't do any laughing in their face or insulting them.
Thanks again :D