Assume that a player is proficient with a Tool, and has the Tool kit in there inventory.
Lets say that the rogue wants to a pick a lock.
Logic would say the check would be against a d20+proficiency modifier.
But sometimes you see it as a d20+dex modifeier+proficiency modifier.
I have even seen people goes as far as d20+sleight of hands + proficiency modifier (this seems extra dumb to me because your proficiency modifier would be in there twice, assuming your proficient with sleight of hand.)
or even Dexterity Check of (x) with thieves tools.
Which of these are correct?
if its anything more than a d20+proficiency modifier, which skill or attribute do you associate with which tool? If someone wanted to make an herbalism check to try to make a healing potion or antitoxin, what attribute ? intelligence or wisdom? Is there a list
Specifically for picking a lock, it is a Dexterity ability check using Thieves' Tools (1d20 + Dex mod). A character proficient in Thieves' Tools can add their proficiency bonus to the roll (1d20 + Dex mod + prof mod).
Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.
Picking locks is one of the few places where the tool + skill is called out. Most of the time it is DM judgement for which ability to use.
With healing potions specifically, Xanathar's Guide to Everything says that someone proficient with herbalism kits can make the basic healing potion in 1 day for 25gp of materials, no check required.
If i player wanted to make a greater healing potion for example, they should be able to do that as well, but i imagine it would require a skill check to successfully refine the the potion.
Crafting Tool Checks are Intelligence Based, because it's based on your knowledge of the trade you are engaging in. Artistic Crafting Tool Checks are Charisma Based, because the end result is all about attempting to appeal to others.
Remember that in D&D 5e there are no "skill checks", but rather "ability checks", which are "d20 + relevant ability modifier + proficiency modifier (if the character is proficient with the activity)". So there is no actual "Thieves' Tools Check", but there can be a "Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) Check", which means "a Dexterity check, adding proficiency bonus if the character is proficient with Thieves' Tools". (Attacks and Saving Throws, while not "skill checks", are very similar: roll d20, add the relevant ability modifier, and add proficiency bonus if you're proficient with the weapon/attack or saving throw.)
This is why there's a rule variant where you can use skills with "non-standard" abilities (like rolling a Strength (Intimidation) check to intimidate someone through a display of raw physical strength, or a Dexterity (Performance) check to attempt to delight an audience through technical mastery of an instrument, rather than with a heartfelt, emotional performance).
Crafting Tool Checks are Intelligence Based, because it's based on your knowledge of the trade you are engaging in. Artistic Crafting Tool Checks are Charisma Based, because the end result is all about attempting to appeal to others.
Neither the crafting rules in the Player's Handbook or Xanathar's Guide to Everything require making ability checks.
If a DM did decide to call for an ability check an ability check, there's no reason it has to be an intelligence check. Your knowledge of the craft is already accounted for in your tool proficiency. The ability used should depend on what you're trying to do, and a DM could decide different parts of the crafting process require different abilities.
Requiring charisma for a painting is also kind of silly, because the impact a painting has on the viewer has nothing to do with your force of personality; even the most meek, soft-spoken artist can produce something that resonates with their audience. If anything, wisdom would make more sense, since that's the ability tied to perceptiveness and intuition.
Tool rules are left deliberately vague for DMs to decide (to the frustration of DMs and Players alike).
But the trend I've noticed for tools is a simple ability check plus proficiency if proficient. This suggests that, like skills, you can use tools even if not proficient.
Xanathar's has a few additional/variant rules for tool proficiencies like giving advantage on skill checks if the circumstances coincides with the tools field or checks that can be made with the tool to accomplish a specific task.
Tool rules are left deliberately vague for DMs to decide (to the frustration of DMs and Players alike).
But the trend I've noticed for tools is a simple ability check plus proficiency if proficient. This suggests that, like skills, you can use tools even if not proficient.
The tool rules and descriptions all say that a tool lets you add your proficiency bonus to an attribute check if you are proficient in the tool. I don't see why you couldn't use a tool you didn't have proficiency in, you just wouldn't be able to use your proficiency bonus on the attribute check to do the task. Similar to how you are allowed to use a weapon you do not have proficiency in, but do not get the proficiency bonus with it.
That seems to be the way it works. Make an Ability check to do the thing. If you have a skill or a tool proficiency that would apply add your proficiency bonus (once only). Some tasks might require the proper tool to even make the ability check. You can't make soup without a pot to cook it in.
Tool rules are left deliberately vague for DMs to decide (to the frustration of DMs and Players alike).
But the trend I've noticed for tools is a simple ability check plus proficiency if proficient. This suggests that, like skills, you can use tools even if not proficient.
The tool rules and descriptions all say that a tool lets you add your proficiency bonus to an attribute check if you are proficient in the tool. I don't see why you couldn't use a tool you didn't have proficiency in, you just wouldn't be able to use your proficiency bonus on the attribute check to do the task. Similar to how you are allowed to use a weapon you do not have proficiency in, but do not get the proficiency bonus with it.
That seems to be the way it works. Make an Ability check to do the thing. If you have a skill or a tool proficiency that would apply add your proficiency bonus (once only). Some tasks might require the proper tool to even make the ability check. You can't make soup without a pot to cook it in.
That's what I'm saying, but I doubt most people realize they can use tools without proficiency.
10,000 gp for what is basically a 6th level cure wounds spell seems ridiculous.
Agreed, there are diminishing returns on higher level potions, but they can be used by non-healers, and they sell for double that, so you can earn 2500gp per week.
I'm curious how something like Cartography Tools would work where you have both a craft and art component.
Let's say a character without Cartography Tools Proficiency but with the appropriate Cartography Tools is paid to make a map of some new bit of unexplored wilderness. What would the Skill Check be for this? Without the Cartography Tools Proficiency you certainly wouldn't get to add your Proficiency Bonus but you'd still roll something. You could argue for Intelligence since it's certainly related to History/Nature/Investigation but Charisma makes sense as well since it's an artistic creation like Performance.
In theory, I guess you could do both-- you could end up with an ugly but accurate map or a beautiful but inaccurate map.
For map making, I think Dexterity might be a better skill check than Charisma. Intelligence or Wisdom would also work. Failing a skill check for mapmaking, would, I argue make for an inaccurate map, and not just in distance accuracy but in the relative location of objects on the map.
A lot of older maps were not accurate in terms of scale, but, did show an accurate representation of where places where in relation to each other (i.e., a map might show that you have to cross a river before reaching a distinctive peak without providing an accurate representation of the distance between the river and the peak, while an inaccurate map might show the peak on the wrong side of the river).
These are the kind of checks where you ask the player what their character is doing or how they envision their training. Just like there is no single perfect way to make a map, there's no one way to be skilled at making one. You could be very precise and detailed in your strokes (DEX), you could use a well-developed memory and spatial reasoning to create the larger picture from your restricted perspective (INT), you could perfectly capture the atmosphere and accurately guess what might be in the blank spots through intuition and inference (WIS), etc. I'm not sure how STR or CON would work (you physically run around the entire area, counting your strides...?), and I'm not totally sold on it being like a performance (CHA) since a map actually has to be accurate to be useful and not just appealing, but I'd be open to hearing what the player had in mind. It's what makes the skill system fun.
To make a perfect copy/reproduction of an existing map would be dex, but to create a new and somehow functional one would require knowing the area and accurately recalling distances and locations, that'd for sure be Int or Wis and would absolutely require some amount of personal experience through the region or having seen other maps of the area in the past.
PS. The best cartographers in D&D are probably all wizards for their High Int and their ability to summon a familiar to get a bird's eye view. Literally.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Assume that a player is proficient with a Tool, and has the Tool kit in there inventory.
Lets say that the rogue wants to a pick a lock.
Which of these are correct?
if its anything more than a d20+proficiency modifier, which skill or attribute do you associate with which tool? If someone wanted to make an herbalism check to try to make a healing potion or antitoxin, what attribute ? intelligence or wisdom? Is there a list
Specifically for picking a lock, it is a Dexterity ability check using Thieves' Tools (1d20 + Dex mod). A character proficient in Thieves' Tools can add their proficiency bonus to the roll (1d20 + Dex mod + prof mod).
Its mentioned in the Equipment chapter
Picking locks is one of the few places where the tool + skill is called out. Most of the time it is DM judgement for which ability to use.
With healing potions specifically, Xanathar's Guide to Everything says that someone proficient with herbalism kits can make the basic healing potion in 1 day for 25gp of materials, no check required.
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If i player wanted to make a greater healing potion for example, they should be able to do that as well, but i imagine it would require a skill check to successfully refine the the potion.
Crafting Tool Checks are Intelligence Based, because it's based on your knowledge of the trade you are engaging in. Artistic Crafting Tool Checks are Charisma Based, because the end result is all about attempting to appeal to others.
Remember that in D&D 5e there are no "skill checks", but rather "ability checks", which are "d20 + relevant ability modifier + proficiency modifier (if the character is proficient with the activity)". So there is no actual "Thieves' Tools Check", but there can be a "Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) Check", which means "a Dexterity check, adding proficiency bonus if the character is proficient with Thieves' Tools". (Attacks and Saving Throws, while not "skill checks", are very similar: roll d20, add the relevant ability modifier, and add proficiency bonus if you're proficient with the weapon/attack or saving throw.)
This is why there's a rule variant where you can use skills with "non-standard" abilities (like rolling a Strength (Intimidation) check to intimidate someone through a display of raw physical strength, or a Dexterity (Performance) check to attempt to delight an audience through technical mastery of an instrument, rather than with a heartfelt, emotional performance).
Neither the crafting rules in the Player's Handbook or Xanathar's Guide to Everything require making ability checks.
If a DM did decide to call for an ability check an ability check, there's no reason it has to be an intelligence check. Your knowledge of the craft is already accounted for in your tool proficiency. The ability used should depend on what you're trying to do, and a DM could decide different parts of the crafting process require different abilities.
Requiring charisma for a painting is also kind of silly, because the impact a painting has on the viewer has nothing to do with your force of personality; even the most meek, soft-spoken artist can produce something that resonates with their audience. If anything, wisdom would make more sense, since that's the ability tied to perceptiveness and intuition.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Tool rules are left deliberately vague for DMs to decide (to the frustration of DMs and Players alike).
But the trend I've noticed for tools is a simple ability check plus proficiency if proficient. This suggests that, like skills, you can use tools even if not proficient.
Xanathar's has a few additional/variant rules for tool proficiencies like giving advantage on skill checks if the circumstances coincides with the tools field or checks that can be made with the tool to accomplish a specific task.
Xanathar's just lists it as taking more time and materials. As a DM, I would probably allow an ability / tool check to speed up the process.
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The tool rules and descriptions all say that a tool lets you add your proficiency bonus to an attribute check if you are proficient in the tool. I don't see why you couldn't use a tool you didn't have proficiency in, you just wouldn't be able to use your proficiency bonus on the attribute check to do the task. Similar to how you are allowed to use a weapon you do not have proficiency in, but do not get the proficiency bonus with it.
That seems to be the way it works. Make an Ability check to do the thing. If you have a skill or a tool proficiency that would apply add your proficiency bonus (once only). Some tasks might require the proper tool to even make the ability check. You can't make soup without a pot to cook it in.
That's what I'm saying, but I doubt most people realize they can use tools without proficiency.
10,000 gp for what is basically a 6th level cure wounds spell seems ridiculous.
Agreed, there are diminishing returns on higher level potions, but they can be used by non-healers, and they sell for double that, so you can earn 2500gp per week.
I'm curious how something like Cartography Tools would work where you have both a craft and art component.
Let's say a character without Cartography Tools Proficiency but with the appropriate Cartography Tools is paid to make a map of some new bit of unexplored wilderness. What would the Skill Check be for this? Without the Cartography Tools Proficiency you certainly wouldn't get to add your Proficiency Bonus but you'd still roll something. You could argue for Intelligence since it's certainly related to History/Nature/Investigation but Charisma makes sense as well since it's an artistic creation like Performance.
In theory, I guess you could do both-- you could end up with an ugly but accurate map or a beautiful but inaccurate map.
For map making, I think Dexterity might be a better skill check than Charisma. Intelligence or Wisdom would also work. Failing a skill check for mapmaking, would, I argue make for an inaccurate map, and not just in distance accuracy but in the relative location of objects on the map.
A lot of older maps were not accurate in terms of scale, but, did show an accurate representation of where places where in relation to each other (i.e., a map might show that you have to cross a river before reaching a distinctive peak without providing an accurate representation of the distance between the river and the peak, while an inaccurate map might show the peak on the wrong side of the river).
These are the kind of checks where you ask the player what their character is doing or how they envision their training. Just like there is no single perfect way to make a map, there's no one way to be skilled at making one. You could be very precise and detailed in your strokes (DEX), you could use a well-developed memory and spatial reasoning to create the larger picture from your restricted perspective (INT), you could perfectly capture the atmosphere and accurately guess what might be in the blank spots through intuition and inference (WIS), etc. I'm not sure how STR or CON would work (you physically run around the entire area, counting your strides...?), and I'm not totally sold on it being like a performance (CHA) since a map actually has to be accurate to be useful and not just appealing, but I'd be open to hearing what the player had in mind. It's what makes the skill system fun.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I think that a Cartography Tool to examine an existing map would be an INT (tool) check, while to draw a map would be a DEX (tool) check.
To make a perfect copy/reproduction of an existing map would be dex, but to create a new and somehow functional one would require knowing the area and accurately recalling distances and locations, that'd for sure be Int or Wis and would absolutely require some amount of personal experience through the region or having seen other maps of the area in the past.
PS. The best cartographers in D&D are probably all wizards for their High Int and their ability to summon a familiar to get a bird's eye view. Literally.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Someone with proficiency in cartographer's tools and proficiency in history might be granted advantage on trying to recall something relevant while looking at a map. Tool proficiencies can have nice secondary benefits with ability checks.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So I enjoy working in a forge in my spare time... I came up with a series of checks for using smithing tools:
1 Int check to make sure you know what possible method to repair or if it can be repaired or to design a functioning weapon
2 Str for moving the metals to make or repair
3 Dex for finishing/cleaning and making it look nice
A similar sequence is appropriate for wood working.
1 Int check for planning the item, joints to use, tools needed excetra
2 Dex or Wis (GM with player Whine choice) to execute the plan
3 Chr To clean up ans make appealing to the potential client.