Okay, this topic has come up a lot lately in recent threads, and so I decided to create a thread around it.
First off, I want to make it clear, fun cannot be wrong unless it is directly at the expense of someone else. This is true for D&D playstyles, and every other situation where the intent is to have fun. Futhermore, as D&D is a game, where the intent is to have fun, this means that there is no wrong way to play D&D if everyone at the table is having fun, and they are not directly harming anyone outside of the table, no matter how abnormal their playstyle may seem to you. If you have fun playing D&D where no one can speak Common, and everyone at the table is having fun, that is a correct way to play D&D. If a player has fun playing a character in a combat wheelchair, that is a correct way to play D&D. If a table has fun playing D&D in outer space battling mind-eating platypuses and eel-spiders using laser-pistols and british-space-hippos, that is a correct way to play D&D.
If the fun is at the expense of someone else at the table, that is playing D&D incorrectly. For example, if a player has fun because their character constantly steals from everyone else and the victimized players aren't having fun due to the problem player's behavior, their fun is wrong because it is at the expense of their fellow players, and thus they are playing D&D incorrectly. If a whole group at the table has fun playing D&D because they're using racial slurs and base all of their races off of real life racial stereotypes, that is directly at the expense of those real-life racial/cultural groups and thus the table's fun is wrong.
Now, to address red-herrings and bad-faith arguments that will inevitably come up. People will complain "the new direction of D&D is negatively effecting my table! Whataboutthat?!?!"
Wrong. It isn't. You have your preferred rulesets already. Any "negative impact" that you are experiencing is in your head. It is pretend and imagined to claim a false sense of victimhood. Your annoyance at the recent inclusive changes to D&D 5e is not a valid rebuttal to the truth that is that D&D cannot be played incorrectly if everyone at the table is having fun and no one is directly being negatively impacted by my table. Comparing your annoyance at my playstyle to the harm that perpetuated racial slurs and stereotypes does to real world marginalized people is both selfish and nonsensical. If you get offended by my D&D game with british space hippos, eel spiders, and spaceships, that's on you and you have no right to tell me how to play my game when me and my players are minding our own business and enjoying the game (furthermore, Spelljammer has been in D&D for decades. D&D has been not just a fantasy-medieval game for longer than I've been alive).
tl;dr - The answer is almost definitely a "my fun is not wrong", unless your fun is directly at the expense of someone else. If your fun comes at the expense of someone else, stop playing that way. That's bad for the community and the world. If your fun isn't at the expense of someone else, ignore anyone that tells you that your fun is wrong, because it isn't. It doesn't matter if you're a powergamer, hardcore-roleplayer, Rules as Cool DM, Rules as Written DM, or whatever else. Play how you want, because your fun is not wrong, and call out anyone that you see trying to tell anyone otherwise.
The rest of the thread can be for discussing how this idea seems so widespread amongst the community, how to deal with people who gatekeep based on playstyle, and sharing the amazing and unique playstyles that you enjoy at the table. Happy Easter and I hope this discussion remains constructive.
I think the key to a successful DnD campaign/session is the have everyone on the same page with regards to what to expect. It can be hard to communicate what you're looking for untill you're actually in the situation itself, but it seems to me that it can be very much worth it to put in that extra effort and actually talk through people's approaches and expectations.
A group I was supposed to play with some years ago met up to talk things through, and at the time it seemed like everyone were vaguely on the same level, but we felt too awkward about the whole thing to go through things in any detail.. when the first session happened, there was actually a distinct difference between how some of our players expected the game to go, with some of us having many slightly comical characters and others having made rather serious brooding characters, which appeared not to mix very well at all. There never was a session 2 due to other complications, but it wasn't a great start to a campaign.
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Your fun is only wrong if someone more important than you says so. Since all 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet are equal in their unimportance, yet golden.
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
Or if you believe that those rules are entirely complete and perfect and a DM uses a house rule, you don't have to complain about it and you can go enjoy something else instead.
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
Well, I would agree with your strawman non sequitur but then we'd both be wrong. First of all, there are numerous situations that aren't covered by RAW that requires going outside the rules, second of all, there are literal rules for making up your own rules or using optional rules and third, just because someone wants to play the game differetly (and I think you might want to read this at least twice, because this is kind of the whole point of the thread you replied to) from how you play it doesn't mean that they are playing it wrong, should find another game or is "bent on the destruction of D&D".
I agree about 99% with what you say. the only bit I dismiss as silly is when folks want to start drawing lines between the fantasy races and such to today's society and RL racial issues. People who do this, IMO are looking for another way to be a victim and if you look hard enough, you will find something to be victimized by.
Well, you are demonstrably wrong, people are affected IRL by how things are portrayed in fiction (which includes games). That is really not the topic of this thread though and there is enough material for you to find on the googles if you wish to learn more so need to stray further off the topic of this thread.
Honestly trying to deal with gatekeeping attitudes is exhausting and I find it best to just ignore it if it's nothing but someone going on a rant. Only time I feel like saying something is in defense of a new entrant into any particular geekdom. Like this meme in sentiment, but I'm not claiming to be an elder trans person.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
You keep equating "using homebrew rules/houserules" with "bad D&D", and therefore "Destruction of the hobby". This is wrong.
If using houserules is fun for the table, they are playing D&D correctly. If they are playing D&D correctly, that is not "bad D&D", that is "good D&D". And there is absolutely no way that Good D&D can destroy the hobby.
Got it? It's a really simple transitive property problem. Here, let me simplify it a bit.
Fun D&D = Good D&D = Good for the hobby.
Not Fun D&D (for those at the table) = Bad D&D = Bad for the hobby.
It's really simple. If people at the table are having fun, that's good D&D and therefore good at the hobby. If people at the table aren't having fun, they're doing something wrong and that makes that bad D&D, and therefore bad for the hobby. Good D&D can't be bad for the hobby and Bad D&D can't be good for the hobby. My table has fun playing a different way from yours, which makes it good D&D, and therefore good for the hobby, even if it's different from your D&D.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
You keep equating "using homebrew rules/houserules" with "bad D&D", and therefore "Destruction of the hobby". This is wrong.
If using houserules is fun for the table, they are playing D&D correctly. If they are playing D&D correctly, that is not "bad D&D", that is "good D&D". And there is absolutely no way that Good D&D can destroy the hobby.
Got it? It's a really simple transitive property problem. Here, let me simplify it a bit.
Fun D&D = Good D&D = Good for the hobby.
Not Fun D&D (for those at the table) = Bad D&D = Bad for the hobby.
It's really simple. If people at the table are having fun, that's good D&D and therefore good at the hobby. If people at the table aren't having fun, they're doing something wrong and that makes that bad D&D, and therefore bad for the hobby. Good D&D can't be bad for the hobby and Bad D&D can't be good for the hobby. My table has fun playing a different way from yours, which makes it good D&D, and therefore good for the hobby, even if it's different from your D&D.
Until there is any migrations of players from one table to another. Maybe for a long time you have played in the same group, with zero players moving in and out, and you are totally insulated. You can then call whatever you are playing D&D, or Chess, or Global Thermonuclear War, and no one is upset, or confused.
But in general, as soon as player are introduced into a table with vastly different rules, House Rules or not, there is going to be confusion or discomfort. That is self-evident. And in the real D&D community, players and DM's alike are looking for new opportunities. Just look at any website's "Looking for players", or "Looking for a game" forums. At which point, one person's view of "Good D&D" is another person's worst nightmare. Commonality is required in a community such as D&D. And don't say "Well, player X can bow out after realizing the experience at that new table is not for him". Because it is not that simple. Players usually make a real effort and investment in time before joining a new campaign, let alone what a DM does.
Players usually make a real effort and investment in time before joining a new campaign, let alone what a DM does.
So? Sometimes things don't work out. That's life for ya. People put a lot of time and effort into changing things they feel are detrimental to their fun as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
You keep equating "using homebrew rules/houserules" with "bad D&D", and therefore "Destruction of the hobby". This is wrong.
If using houserules is fun for the table, they are playing D&D correctly. If they are playing D&D correctly, that is not "bad D&D", that is "good D&D". And there is absolutely no way that Good D&D can destroy the hobby.
Got it? It's a really simple transitive property problem. Here, let me simplify it a bit.
Fun D&D = Good D&D = Good for the hobby.
Not Fun D&D (for those at the table) = Bad D&D = Bad for the hobby.
It's really simple. If people at the table are having fun, that's good D&D and therefore good at the hobby. If people at the table aren't having fun, they're doing something wrong and that makes that bad D&D, and therefore bad for the hobby. Good D&D can't be bad for the hobby and Bad D&D can't be good for the hobby. My table has fun playing a different way from yours, which makes it good D&D, and therefore good for the hobby, even if it's different from your D&D.
Until there is any migrations of players from one table to another. Maybe for a long time you have played in the same group, with zero players moving in and out, and you are totally insulated. You can then call whatever you are playing D&D, or Chess, or Global Thermonuclear War, and no one is upset, or confused.
If they are playing D&D, no matter the amount of house rules, they are still playing D&D. If they are having fun and it's at no-one's expense, it is still good D&D.
But in general, as soon as player are introduced into a table with vastly different rules, House Rules or not, there is going to be confusion or discomfort. That is self-evident.
No, that is your opinion. Believe it or not, people can adapt.
And in the real D&D community, players and DM's alike are looking for new opportunities.
In the "real D&D community" (didn't know there was fraudulent one) people use houserules and try different ways to play the game all the time.
Just look at any website's "Looking for players", or "Looking for a game" forums. At which point, one person's view of "Good D&D" is another person's worst nightmare. Commonality is required in a community such as D&D. And don't say "Well, player X can bow out after realizing the experience at that new table is not for him". Because it is not that simple. Players usually make a real effort and investment in time before joining a new campaign, let alone what a DM does.
Commonality isn't the same thing is conformity, though. Again, people (well, some people) are surprisingly enough willing to try different things and still have fun.
The rest of the thread can be for discussing how this idea seems so widespread amongst the community
I feel very strongly that this idea isn't widespread amongst the community at all. It's a very few very vocal people, and they get a lot of exposure for the same reason vocal minorities tend to dominate the content of virtually all media these days: we flock to controversy like moths to a flame.
We are also just a passionate bunch and like to debate and argue. There are 20 page threads about an aspect of RAW where one side is literally one person and the other is everyone else. Then someone sees it and thinks it's a "disputed" rule. I mean I guess technically it is, but when we inevitably jump into a controversial thread, it's important to note whether there's truly a lot of differing opinions or just 1-2 very loud people who may or may not be arguing just for the attention or because they have nothing else to do.
How To Tell if Your Fun is Wrong: When some rando with zero investment in your game and clearly too much time on their hands makes their 87th thread whinging about how your style of game is ruining D&D forevaaaaaaaaaaaaar...
How To Tell if Your Fun is Wrong: When some rando with zero investment in your game and clearly too much time on their hands makes their 87th thread whinging about how your style of game is ruining D&D forevaaaaaaaaaaaaar...
Don't you know? You're supposed to believe anything anyone tells you, especially if it is on the internet!!! /s
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
How To Tell if Your Fun is Wrong: When some rando with zero investment in your game and clearly too much time on their hands makes their 87th thread whinging about how your style of game is ruining D&D forevaaaaaaaaaaaaar...
Don't you know? You're supposed to believe anything anyone tells you, especially if it is on the internet!!! /s
But I was told by another random person on the internet to not believe everything people on the internet tell you. Why can’t the internet make up it’s mind?!!!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Okay, this topic has come up a lot lately in recent threads, and so I decided to create a thread around it.
First off, I want to make it clear, fun cannot be wrong unless it is directly at the expense of someone else. This is true for D&D playstyles, and every other situation where the intent is to have fun. Futhermore, as D&D is a game, where the intent is to have fun, this means that there is no wrong way to play D&D if everyone at the table is having fun, and they are not directly harming anyone outside of the table, no matter how abnormal their playstyle may seem to you. If you have fun playing D&D where no one can speak Common, and everyone at the table is having fun, that is a correct way to play D&D. If a player has fun playing a character in a combat wheelchair, that is a correct way to play D&D. If a table has fun playing D&D in outer space battling mind-eating platypuses and eel-spiders using laser-pistols and british-space-hippos, that is a correct way to play D&D.
If the fun is at the expense of someone else at the table, that is playing D&D incorrectly. For example, if a player has fun because their character constantly steals from everyone else and the victimized players aren't having fun due to the problem player's behavior, their fun is wrong because it is at the expense of their fellow players, and thus they are playing D&D incorrectly. If a whole group at the table has fun playing D&D because they're using racial slurs and base all of their races off of real life racial stereotypes, that is directly at the expense of those real-life racial/cultural groups and thus the table's fun is wrong.
Now, to address red-herrings and bad-faith arguments that will inevitably come up. People will complain "the new direction of D&D is negatively effecting my table! Whataboutthat?!?!"
Wrong. It isn't. You have your preferred rulesets already. Any "negative impact" that you are experiencing is in your head. It is pretend and imagined to claim a false sense of victimhood. Your annoyance at the recent inclusive changes to D&D 5e is not a valid rebuttal to the truth that is that D&D cannot be played incorrectly if everyone at the table is having fun and no one is directly being negatively impacted by my table. Comparing your annoyance at my playstyle to the harm that perpetuated racial slurs and stereotypes does to real world marginalized people is both selfish and nonsensical. If you get offended by my D&D game with british space hippos, eel spiders, and spaceships, that's on you and you have no right to tell me how to play my game when me and my players are minding our own business and enjoying the game (furthermore, Spelljammer has been in D&D for decades. D&D has been not just a fantasy-medieval game for longer than I've been alive).
tl;dr - The answer is almost definitely a "my fun is not wrong", unless your fun is directly at the expense of someone else. If your fun comes at the expense of someone else, stop playing that way. That's bad for the community and the world. If your fun isn't at the expense of someone else, ignore anyone that tells you that your fun is wrong, because it isn't. It doesn't matter if you're a powergamer, hardcore-roleplayer, Rules as Cool DM, Rules as Written DM, or whatever else. Play how you want, because your fun is not wrong, and call out anyone that you see trying to tell anyone otherwise.
The rest of the thread can be for discussing how this idea seems so widespread amongst the community, how to deal with people who gatekeep based on playstyle, and sharing the amazing and unique playstyles that you enjoy at the table. Happy Easter and I hope this discussion remains constructive.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think the key to a successful DnD campaign/session is the have everyone on the same page with regards to what to expect. It can be hard to communicate what you're looking for untill you're actually in the situation itself, but it seems to me that it can be very much worth it to put in that extra effort and actually talk through people's approaches and expectations.
A group I was supposed to play with some years ago met up to talk things through, and at the time it seemed like everyone were vaguely on the same level, but we felt too awkward about the whole thing to go through things in any detail.. when the first session happened, there was actually a distinct difference between how some of our players expected the game to go, with some of us having many slightly comical characters and others having made rather serious brooding characters, which appeared not to mix very well at all. There never was a session 2 due to other complications, but it wasn't a great start to a campaign.
...and just to add on to what has already been said. There are other games than D&D and there's nothing wrong with wanting to play one of those if that is more to your liking.
Tally bally Ho Sir! The British Space Hippo's of the 75th Gif Rifles salute fun everywhere, wherever it may be found! What-Ho good sir, what-ho!
100% agree. Well said.
Your fun is only wrong if someone more important than you says so. Since all 7,000,000,000+ people on the planet are equal in their unimportance, yet golden.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Correct.
D&D is a game with a vast set of rules that are required because the canvas the game is played on is people's imagination. Those rules still allow a huge huge range of play within those guardrails. If a person feels unhappy playing within those rules, they are more than welcome to find a game and a like-minded group of people to play that game. They don't have to be bent on the destruction of D&D instead.
Or if you believe that those rules are entirely complete and perfect and a DM uses a house rule, you don't have to complain about it and you can go enjoy something else instead.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Well, I would agree with your strawman non sequitur but then we'd both be wrong. First of all, there are numerous situations that aren't covered by RAW that requires going outside the rules, second of all, there are literal rules for making up your own rules or using optional rules and third, just because someone wants to play the game differetly (and I think you might want to read this at least twice, because this is kind of the whole point of the thread you replied to) from how you play it doesn't mean that they are playing it wrong, should find another game or is "bent on the destruction of D&D".
Well, you are demonstrably wrong, people are affected IRL by how things are portrayed in fiction (which includes games). That is really not the topic of this thread though and there is enough material for you to find on the googles if you wish to learn more so need to stray further off the topic of this thread.
Honestly trying to deal with gatekeeping attitudes is exhausting and I find it best to just ignore it if it's nothing but someone going on a rant. Only time I feel like saying something is in defense of a new entrant into any particular geekdom. Like this meme in sentiment, but I'm not claiming to be an elder trans person.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You keep equating "using homebrew rules/houserules" with "bad D&D", and therefore "Destruction of the hobby". This is wrong.
If using houserules is fun for the table, they are playing D&D correctly. If they are playing D&D correctly, that is not "bad D&D", that is "good D&D". And there is absolutely no way that Good D&D can destroy the hobby.
Got it? It's a really simple transitive property problem. Here, let me simplify it a bit.
Fun D&D = Good D&D = Good for the hobby.
Not Fun D&D (for those at the table) = Bad D&D = Bad for the hobby.
It's really simple. If people at the table are having fun, that's good D&D and therefore good at the hobby. If people at the table aren't having fun, they're doing something wrong and that makes that bad D&D, and therefore bad for the hobby. Good D&D can't be bad for the hobby and Bad D&D can't be good for the hobby. My table has fun playing a different way from yours, which makes it good D&D, and therefore good for the hobby, even if it's different from your D&D.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Until there is any migrations of players from one table to another. Maybe for a long time you have played in the same group, with zero players moving in and out, and you are totally insulated. You can then call whatever you are playing D&D, or Chess, or Global Thermonuclear War, and no one is upset, or confused.
But in general, as soon as player are introduced into a table with vastly different rules, House Rules or not, there is going to be confusion or discomfort. That is self-evident. And in the real D&D community, players and DM's alike are looking for new opportunities. Just look at any website's "Looking for players", or "Looking for a game" forums. At which point, one person's view of "Good D&D" is another person's worst nightmare. Commonality is required in a community such as D&D. And don't say "Well, player X can bow out after realizing the experience at that new table is not for him". Because it is not that simple. Players usually make a real effort and investment in time before joining a new campaign, let alone what a DM does.
Vince, I get that you've found your hill and you're going to die on it. Just don't think your attitude is going to persuade anyone.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
So? Sometimes things don't work out. That's life for ya. People put a lot of time and effort into changing things they feel are detrimental to their fun as well.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
If they are playing D&D, no matter the amount of house rules, they are still playing D&D. If they are having fun and it's at no-one's expense, it is still good D&D.
No, that is your opinion. Believe it or not, people can adapt.
In the "real D&D community" (didn't know there was fraudulent one) people use houserules and try different ways to play the game all the time.
Commonality isn't the same thing is conformity, though. Again, people (well, some people) are surprisingly enough willing to try different things and still have fun.
I feel very strongly that this idea isn't widespread amongst the community at all. It's a very few very vocal people, and they get a lot of exposure for the same reason vocal minorities tend to dominate the content of virtually all media these days: we flock to controversy like moths to a flame.
We are also just a passionate bunch and like to debate and argue. There are 20 page threads about an aspect of RAW where one side is literally one person and the other is everyone else. Then someone sees it and thinks it's a "disputed" rule. I mean I guess technically it is, but when we inevitably jump into a controversial thread, it's important to note whether there's truly a lot of differing opinions or just 1-2 very loud people who may or may not be arguing just for the attention or because they have nothing else to do.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
How To Tell if Your Fun is Wrong: When some rando with zero investment in your game and clearly too much time on their hands makes their 87th thread whinging about how your style of game is ruining D&D forevaaaaaaaaaaaaar...
Don't you know? You're supposed to believe anything anyone tells you, especially if it is on the internet!!! /s
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
But I was told by another random person on the internet to not believe everything people on the internet tell you. Why can’t the internet make up it’s mind?!!!!
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Strange I swear I saw this topic on Enworld. And you can have badwrongfun if you are wasting your fellow gamers time.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.